Curse

xxx wraith xxx · Apr 29, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

does virulence work with this build? i mean: you have weakness and poison already if i am correct and dissease can be added using that skill wich makes a minion explode and give dissease to all foes around (forgot te name ><)

Richardt · Apr 29, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Not sure about how heroes act with AoD, but I'm sure they'll use it extremely well.

I know from experience that giving a hero a half-casting range spell usually leads to disaster (unless it's a monk with a healing skill), but I can give it a shot tonight and see how it fairs.

Tyla · Apr 29, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by blurmedia

ohi tyla i heard you're bad at dervish and forgot aohm

You can always swap out HoHF for it.
All of the builds are built to be usable without PvE-only skills aswell.

And Blur, it's "ohai" and "herd".

@Wraith -- I already have Weakness, Poison and Disease. Weakness comes from Enfeebling Blood, Poison comes from Toxic Chill and Disease comes from Rotting Flesh.
And you're thinking about Putrid Flesh for Disease.

DarkSpirit · Apr 29, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx wraith xxx

does virulence work with this build? i mean: you have weakness and poison already if i am correct and dissease can be added using that skill wich makes a minion explode and give dissease to all foes around (forgot te name ><)

The skill that makes a minion explode is [[Death Nova] and that gives poison, not disease.

Just using Sab's MM build you already have Bleeding+Poison from [[Jagged Bones] and [[Death Nova]. Disease from Rotting Flesh is ok, but if you use disease against human enemies, it can spread the disease back to you.

I always try to bring the disease-causing skills on the human player to make better decisions on when to use it. Just using [[Signet of Infection] on a bleeding enemy (from jagged or others) would cause disease.

xxx wraith xxx · Apr 29, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I acually ment Putrid flesh, but I didnt know if the Toxic chill necro was for the main use or just optional. I'd rather take a ranger with poison tip signet (no energy cost ftw) and use jagged bones on the MM but that might be me. Anyway i saw the weakness ofc. Didnt know for sure bout the poison but every MM runs death nova (if not dont play MM). So only thing i was guessing for was dissease but since thats pointed out I'd like to say: thank you for telling me :P

Tyla · Apr 29, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Ah, but the Necro's job isn't really to MM, but to make condition pressure harder.
The minions are just icing on the cake.

DarkSpirit · Apr 29, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx wraith xxx

I acually ment Putrid flesh, but I didnt know if the Toxic chill necro was for the main use or just optional. I'd rather take a ranger with poison tip signet (no energy cost ftw) and use jagged bones on the MM but that might be me. Anyway i saw the weakness ofc. Didnt know for sure bout the poison but every MM runs death nova (if not dont play MM). So only thing i was guessing for was dissease but since thats pointed out I'd like to say: thank you for telling me :P

Yes, Putrid flesh gives disease you are right, but my point remains the same - it spreads back to you if you use it on human foes. Disease spreads across same species, so if you use it on Charrs and you have Pyre, it spreads to him too. I like Jagged Bones and Death Nova on MM too and I have been using that combo even before GWEN.

draugr · Apr 29, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I used to run and micro this on a derv/n hero, it worked fine, but the micro of contagion, chilblains and signet of agony got annoying and dropped it:

[contagion] [zealous renewal] [mystic regeneration][dark aura][chilblains] [signet of agony] [wearying strike] [plague touch]

Spreads targetless -7 degen and weakness to all in the area on first aggro, together with whatever conditions the mobs apply back, aoe enchant stripping, applies DW fast and reapplies DW to single target and area weakness every 6 seconds thereafter, cleans itself and does fair dmg with the scythe, holy aoe and dark aura triggered by contagion. Mystic regen makes it fairly hearty. Hero won't even begin to use it right, so had to micro, but works well if you don't mind that. Death, curse and blood can be rather low and still accomplish the desired effect.

The micro isn't really all that bad, force contagion and dark aura pre aggro, then once it has reached a target, force signet of agony and chilblains. The hero will use mystic regen, plague touch, wearying strike and zealous renewal fine w/o microing those skills.

Just wanted to add it as it fits in the OP theme.

DarkSpirit · Apr 29, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

I used to run and micro this on a derv/n hero, it worked fine, but the micro of contagion, chilblains and signet of agony got annoying and dropped it:

I use Contagion/Foul Feast on my human necro, along with the triple necro build for soul reaping, since I dislike too much micro on my heroes. [[Signet of Agony] gives 25s of bleeding no matter what level of blood magic. Chiblains is nice but the energy cost is high. Dark Aura gives good damage but it requires you to be at melee range so I am not sure if I trust the hero to do it right at all times.

Chthon · Apr 29, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

[contagion] [zealous renewal] [mystic regeneration][dark aura][chilblains] [signet of agony] [wearying strike] [plague touch]

This build can update.

1. Most importantly, Foul Feast can go on it, giving you some removal and the opportunity to synergize with self-infliction on you team (instead of just on the D/N). [Shadow Sanctuary], [Headbutt], and [Aggressive Refrain] come to mind as the best candidates.

2. Chilblains and Signet of Agony can come off the build. Poison and weakness are pretty weak conditions, especially if you're paying 25e for the poison.

3. Zealous Renewal can come off if Chilblains comes off, since the energy load is much lighter.

4. Armor of Sanctity can go on, and add a lot of survivability.

draugr · Apr 29, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This build can update.

1. Most importantly, Foul Feast can go on it, giving you some removal and the opportunity to synergize with self-infliction on you team (instead of just on the D/N). [Shadow Sanctuary], [Headbutt], and [Aggressive Refrain] come to mind as the best candidates.

[foul feast] is an excellent idea, was using this last year before the foul feast buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Chilblains and Signet of Agony can come off the build. Poison and weakness are pretty weak conditions, especially if you're paying 25e for the poison.

hmm, taking you meant to say "poison and bleed are weak." As Darkspirit points out, the bleed is long, 120 degen over 20 second to all mobs in the area on a no energy skill is not bad. Stripping two enchants off every mob in the area may or may not be very useful, in certain areas, very. The ten second poison is another 80 health over ten seconds, for 140 total degen health off every mob in the area in ten seconds, and another 60 in the second ten seconds. Depending on areas, in those with high enchants, found the high energy cost of chilblains worthwhile.

Maybe this, but still requires micro:

[contagion] [armor of sanctity] [mystic regeneration] [signet of agony] [chilblains] [foul feast] [wearying strike] [plague touch]

or in less hard areas, [dark aura] stays in instead of [armor of sanctity]

Tyla · Apr 29, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I'm not really too keen on Contagion Reaper to be honest, I've tried it once when I had my Derv, but it doesn't really offer much.

Chthon · Apr 29, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

hmm, taking you meant to say "poison and bleed are weak."

Yes, that's right. I mistyped.

Quote:

As Darkspirit points out, the bleed is long, 120 degen over 20 second to all mobs in the area on a no energy skill is not bad. Stripping two enchants off every mob in the area may or may not be very useful, in certain areas, very. The ten second poison is another 80 health over ten seconds, for 140 total degen health off every mob in the area in ten seconds, and another 60 in the second ten seconds. Depending on areas, in those with high enchants, found the high energy cost of chilblains worthwhile.

The main problem with degen conditions (and degen generally) is that the DPS, even at max degen, is very low compared to doing direct damage. Why wait 30 sec for something to degen out when you could just kill it in 5 or so? AoE degen is somewhat better because if can drain health from multiple off targets while you're busy killing key targets.

However, there's a second problem: It's so easy to get max degen out of a few highly efficient skills that all the rest of the degen skills are superfluous. Disease spreads on its own, and more widely than Fevered Dreams or Contagion if the monsters are moving around any. Rotting Flesh and Putrid Flesh both fit nicely in MM and MB builds (respectively), and now anyone can use Signet of Infection. That's -4 AoE degen. Well of Suffering is my other AoE degen of choice. It fits easily onto MM and MB bars, and provides -6 degen. Between disease and the well, that's -10 and everything else is unnecessary. The only reason to really consider bringing degen conditions on a contagion build would be if there's no MM or MB in your party.

At any rate, if you keep Barbed Signet, I'd definitely replace Chilblains with Signet of Infection to get you just as much degen for a much lower price.

Richardt · Apr 29, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

If you're relying on pure degen to kill a foe, you've got a long wait ahead of you.

The idea is spread as many conditions around while using physical attack pressure to create a combined effect. In addition, degen is a way to keep enemy healers busy-if they're burning energy removing 3 conditions from the whole party, then that's just less energy they'll have for healing.

DarkSpirit · Apr 29, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The main problem with degen conditions (and degen generally) is that the DPS, even at max degen, is very low compared to doing direct damage. Why wait 30 sec for something to degen out when you could just kill it in 5 or so? AoE degen is somewhat better because if can drain health from multiple off targets while you're busy killing key targets.

Yes damage from degen is not that impressive, but they are just bonus conditions for using a contagion build anyway. At least they are armor ignoring and bypass protection spells like Protective Spirit.

Like I have said earlier, the most useful purpose of such a build should be to spread blindess and daze. Other damage skills are still necessary especially those that respond well to conditions, for example [[Necrosis], [[Signet of Shadows], [[Signet of Toxic Shock], [[Signet of Deadly Corruption], etc. Or skills that benefit from conditions like [[Sadist's Signet], [[Signet of Corruption], or [[Signet of Malice].

And yes, yes, I am playing with Me/A and Me/N Artificer builds too, signets keep popping up in my head.

Pyro maniac · Apr 29, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

[stunning strike] para > the BHA ranger imo

also take more use of the PvE skills, accumulated pain is pretty bad to finish him. If you aren't using the mesmer, Fevered Dreams is pretty bad on AI imo.

DarkSpirit · Apr 29, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

[stunning strike] para > the BHA ranger imo

also take more use of the PvE skills, accumulated pain is pretty bad to finish him. If you aren't using the mesmer, Fevered Dreams is pretty bad on AI imo.

[[Disrupting Throw], [[Spear of Fury], [[Reap Impurities], [[Malicious Strike], [[Scavenger's Focus], [[Victory is Mine], etc. would also benefit from conditions.

Tyla · Apr 29, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

With adrenaline support on the Paragon, maybe.
I mainly use these skillsets so they are hero-friendly aswell, but I admit the Mesmer could do with a little microing.

DarkSpirit · Apr 29, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

If you aren't using the mesmer, Fevered Dreams is pretty bad on AI imo.

You are right, there is an implied sequence which means it is better to be used by a human since the AI doesnt usually understand skill sequences.

Cast order: Fevered Dreams->Fragility->Hypochondriac->Frustration->Accumulated Pain->Cry of Frustration/Guilt

Super Igor · May 03, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

can easily work with a sin in place of the player mesmer too:

[build prof=A/Me crit=12+1 dag=11+1+1 ill=6][fevered dreams][critical agility][black mantis thrust][sneak attack][golden fang strike][death blossom][critical eye][pain inverter][/build]

how about this?